Frank Curzio 00:00

What’s going on out there? I’m Frank Curzio, host of the Wall Street Unplugged podcast, where I break down the headlines and tell you what’s really moving these markets. So I have a great interview for you today. It’s with a legend in the mining industry, and his name is Ian Telfer. If you’re not familiar with Ian, he spent the past 40 years building and running some of the largest mining companies in the world, partnering with guys like Robert Friedland and Frank Dijkstra. We’re talking about the former chairman and president and CEO of Gold Corp, a company which he helped build into 20,000 employees. I think one time it was the largest gold producer in the world, had a $50 billion market cap. He also created Silver Wheaton, who invented the precious metals streaming model. Very large company today. Ian’s a modest guy, someone who rarely does interviews like this, but he agreed to come on because at his ripe young age of 80, he’s also decided to become the co-founder of a new company called BluEnergies.

Frank Curzio 01:14

I know it’s surprising because he’s a guy that never has to work another day in his life. Plus, we’re talking about one of the world’s greatest commodity leaders investing in everything from gold, silver, uranium. So what is he doing investing in offshore drilling? Very exciting interview. Enough of the build-up, and here it is, my interview with Canadian Hall of Fame mining legend Ian Telfer. Ian, thank you so much for joining us on Wall Street Unplugged.

Ian Telfer 01:42

My pleasure, Frank.

Frank Curzio 01:44

Well, man, I don’t know where to start with this. I’m so excited. So let’s start with the gold industry. I guess a lot has changed. You’ve been a legend in the industry 30-plus years, maybe 40 years of experience. What has changed or different from the markets now? Because I think if I told you these three stats, and I said that deficits have grown 13 trillion since COVID, we’re now at 40 trillion. Central bank, massive, massive buying, and you’re looking at the dollar losing 30% of its purchasing power. I would think that gold would be pretty close to $10,000 an ounce here, but we’re not really seeing that. It’s actually 20% below. What do you see in today’s market that’s different from maybe back then when you were running so many different companies back then?

Ian Telfer 02:26

Well, but I agree with whoever wrote that, that you would expect gold to be even higher than it is now, although it’s had a pretty good run in the last couple of years, from 2,000 to 5,000. But I mean, it’ll just keep going up and up and up. I mean, all the indicators are there, the basement of the US dollar and the deficit looming over everyone in the States. So gold doesn’t always go up as quickly as we think it’s going to, but it eventually gets it done. So I assume that’ll happen now.

Frank Curzio 03:04

Is gold the commodity that you’re focusing on most, or is it because I know you’ve, again, Gold Corp and history went over that earlier before this, where starting gold companies and inflation, I mean, it’s so much difficult today. Is gold this, hey, buy, hold forever asset? Because now we have interest rates that are higher, maybe holding on, it’s not paying you anything. I mean, how do you view that commodity compared to, hey, you should own gold stocks or producers or even juniors?

Ian Telfer 03:32

I just think over the long term, gold will do as well as the stocks will, as the companies will. There’s always the risk with the companies that they make a mistake or they have an issue at one of or a number of their mines. And so I really like the commodity, and over time, it’s going to do very well.

Frank Curzio 03:54

And for non-resource investors here, right, because resource investors know exactly who you are, they know Telfer as former chairman and president and CEO of Gold Corp, but also founded Silver Wheaton. Also, I believe you invest in uranium. Is gold the only commodity you look at today, or are you looking at different areas of the market, certain places that you like, or is it like, hey, I’m still firm on gold, or is it, again, it’s all about pricing? Is silver a better buy here, or uranium, or even maybe copper?

Ian Telfer 04:24

And then I guess I’m old-fashioned and stuck in my ways, but yeah, I’m in gold. I prefer gold. I’ve watched silver go up and down, but I’ve never, since we spun off Wheaton Precious Metals, I haven’t been in silver very much. And other than I don’t chase the market, I’m not following technology companies. I guess a combination of estate planning and what I plan to do with the money that I do have going forward, I’m quite happy to be in gold.

Frank Curzio 05:06

Gold and just philanthropy is what you’ve done. I mean, again, I’ve done a lot of research on it. Just incredible what you’ve done for different organizations, which you should be proud of, and a lot of people should be proud of. It’s great. So looking at today’s markets, when you’re looking at how you develop companies, what gets you excited today? Where there’s entrepreneurs looking at it and saying, I know when people see you and say, wow, look at all your success, I feel like a lot of that success from what I read have come from in your mid-50s, right? And then I think it’s Frank Dijkstra, Robert Friedland, learning more about everything and partnering with a lot of these guys. Talk about maybe like the entrepreneurs of how they should approach it, because it seems like it’s such a risky industry, but there’s so many people that are interested, and you probably have so many young people coming to you and saying, hey, how do you do it? How do we build something and have they be like you?

Ian Telfer 05:55

Well, I mean, one thing I should say that I believe that a lot of success for people in business is luck. I really do. And if you invest in any commodity at the right time, you’ll do well. And if you invest in a commodity at the wrong time, you will not do well. And it doesn’t matter which company or which mine or which geography. If it’s the wrong time, it’s the wrong time. And so with gold, I’m very patient, and it’s performing exactly as we all hoped it would. I mean, I think back years ago, when those of us in the gold business said, someday gold is going to get to $2,000, and we always hoped it would, but it took a lot longer than we thought. And then we got to $5,000, and now we’re talking $10,000.

Ian Telfer 06:57

It’ll get there. It’ll get there. But so as far as looking at other parts of the market, what gets me excited? I’m enjoying watching all this technology, but I’m not a big investor in it. I’m not a big investor in it.

Frank Curzio 07:19

So when you’re looking at, I guess, when I look back at your history, I saw the importance of the Frank Dijkstras and Robert Friedlands, but also you talked a lot about the importance of surrounding yourself with great talent. I mean, how was important to that to your success when it comes to Gold Corp, when it comes to Silver Wheaton? Which, by the way, Silver Wheaton, I think Wheaton River was six employees, and then by the time it merged with Gold Corp and you became the CEO chairman, I think it went to 20,000 employees, $50 billion valuation. And I feel like you’re this modest person. Everywhere I read, you’re always like saying how great everything and everyone is around you, but you’re really focused on saying how important it is to surround yourself with great talent. How important is that in terms of that success? You said luck, definitely. I agree. You always need luck to go on your side, but how important is it to have the right people by your side as well?

Ian Telfer 08:06

Well, it’s absolutely critical. And the biggest mistake CEOs make, the biggest mistake they make is when they hire someone and then realize they probably didn’t hire the right person, they’re too embarrassed to do anything about it in the short term, and they wait and they wait and they wait. And I learned that lesson very early. And so I did make a few mistakes, but I dealt with them right away. But I spent a lot of time hiring people, and it was absolutely critical to the success of Wheaton Precious and Gold Corp.

Frank Curzio 08:45

Yeah, it’s great advice. So many success stories that you have, even serving again as chairman of the World Gold Council, which is incredible. So I feel like you could retire, relax, which you’re kind of saying, but there’s a company that you co-founded with a friend of mine who’s Craig Stanke. And looking at the details of this company and getting the right property offshore Liberia, what made you kind of come off the sidelines or be co-foundered? Because I was surprised to see your name on this company, and a lot of people don’t even know it. But again, someone’s focused on gold. This is offshore, right? So this is pretty cool with BluEnergies. What made you get involved? How do you know Craig?

Ian Telfer 09:26

Great question. Craig and I were introduced over the phone about 15 years ago, and I was involved with some people in Vancouver in a little shell, and we were trying to turn it into something, not a gold company. And it all went south. And so there I was, I was involved with this shell, and people had gotten into it because I was there. So I had to sort of save it. And a friend of mine from Toronto phoned me and said, he met this fellow, Craig Stanke, and he was looking for a shell. So I worked out a deal with Craig and sort of became his partner that way. And then that was 15 years ago. And so I’ve been with Craig in one role or another in Mexico, in Spain, in France, in Africa, and now in Liberia. And the other reason oil and gas appealed to me, I used to always joke at all the gold conferences that I spoke at, that in my next life, I was going to stick to oil and gas.

Ian Telfer 10:38

Because once you drill a hole in oil and gas, your troubles are over. But once you drill a hole in gold and you strike it, your troubles are just beginning. And that is just so true. And having been in gold for 40 years, I knew that. And so yeah, so this opportunity in oil and gas, I didn’t expect I would do it at this stage of my life. In fact, I never thought I’d get around to it, but I’m very glad I have. I’ve learned a lot. And I’m very excited about offshore Africa now. I mean, the whole world is piling in.

Frank Curzio 11:19

Yeah, I feel like this is this hidden trend that’s hidden behind AI that nobody’s focusing on, but even Somerje came out and said that this is something they haven’t seen in 15 years in terms of the demand and everybody going offshore. And this is an area that’s been largely untapped. And now it’s not just largely untapped that they’re finding major finds there. So Blue Energy is in the middle of this is really exciting. And you said, hey, in the next life, hey, you know what? You’re still alive and you’re invested in oil now, which is a great thing. But I guess we’ll end with this. Could you talk about some of the philanthropy, some of the things that you’ve done, even for the college that everybody said no to you, and then you decided to start a scholarship for people, not with the best grade, but someone who doesn’t have the best grades, because it wound up working well for you as so many people said no to you. And now I think the whole college and buying a building and stuff like that or donating and stuff.

Frank Curzio 12:08

Tell that story, which is incredible, just to see full circle. I think it’s going to help a lot of entrepreneurs seeing it from that as well, from that angle.

Ian Telfer 12:15

Well, yeah, that’s exactly what happened. I mean, my first degree was in political science, and for the next five years, I stumbled around. I had no path, I had no profession, I had no good jobs, I had no girlfriend, I had nothing. And after five years, I said, you know, I got to reboot myself. So I’ll try to get an MBA. And then, as you said, I applied to all the schools in Canada, and they all turned me down. And then two days before classes started, I got a phone call from the University of Ottawa, and they said, would you like to join or would you like to come? And I said, yes. They said, can you come in for an interview? And I said, yes. And then I went in, and they said, look, your marks are just awful from your undergraduate, but we’ll let you in on trial. So that’s fine. So I got in. And once I got into the MBA program, I was like fish in water. I really enjoyed it. I worked hard at it. I did well at it, etc.

Ian Telfer 13:16

And then, I don’t know, 15 years later, after I graduated, I got a call from the University of Ottawa asking would I like to donate to a scholarship for students. And I go, yeah, sure. And they said, I said, how much are you looking? They were only looking for like $5,000. I said, fine. They were going to add to it or something. And they said, we’ll call you and get your criteria for the scholarship. And they called a few days later and asked me what my criteria was. And I said, I wanted to go to the student that gets into the MBA program last, the student that gets into the MBA program with the lowest marks. And at first, the university pushed back and said, look, we’re an academic institution. We can’t give a scholarship for someone that gets the lowest marks. And I said, hey, it’s my scholarship. So that scholarship’s still going after 25 years. And it caused a few people to joke about it and talk about it.

Ian Telfer 14:21

But the other thing that’s happened is when I’m visiting the school, I run into students that come up to me and say, oh, Mr. Telfer, I’m so proud I got your scholarship. You can’t not smile when someone comes up to you and says that. So it’s worked well for them, worked well for me. And yeah, then after that, when the school was looking for a big donation to name the business school, they approached me. And it was one of those years when gold was moving, and so I was able to help them out. So it worked out very well.

Frank Curzio 14:57

It did work out very well. And why was it that you suggested? I know that that’s your history and your upbringing where you didn’t have the best grades, but do you believe from your success if that person’s just getting in, even with the lowest grades, and you talk about someone who’s successful, they get an MBA, but just the lowest grades, is it that they’re going to fight much, much harder? They need that opportunity? Because I agree with you where when I hire employees now, it’s not about resume because it’s about your fight, your drive, because I can’t teach you that, right? That’s something I can’t teach. You have to have it. If you have it, I could teach you anything if you’re going to work hard.

Ian Telfer 15:34

Well, again, as a person who did not get good marks, especially in high school and in university, you always, I mean, when you’re in school, the number one way you are seen is academically. And so as someone with low marks, you’re not seen very well for that period of time. And I always felt bad about that. I always assumed someday something would work for me. I just didn’t know how or when or where. And so, yeah, so I wanted to also make a point to the university that when you’re deciding who should get into your school and who shouldn’t get into your school, you have no idea what you’re doing. Because here’s someone who you turned down whose name is now on the building. Look at your own criteria.

Frank Curzio 16:31

Whose name’s on the building? That’s great. And one last question, if I may. Well, Frank Dijkstra, Robert Friedland, do they have a call even today? Because I know Blue Energy, as you said, hey, you saw a good opportunity. You’re mostly retired here, and this is something that I think it’s always a great story when you see someone kind of coming off the sidelines and saying, I see such a great opportunity in being part of Blue Energy. But do those guys ever come and ask you to get involved in any other companies? Because they’ve been your partners in the past, and you talk very highly of them in the past, and those are also investor legends.

Ian Telfer 16:59

Well, I’m still in touch. I talk to Frank quite regularly. Robert Friedland, no one’s ever told him what to invest in. So no, he’s never asked.

Frank Curzio 17:10

No, that’s great stuff. Well, listen, I really, really appreciate the timing and just to see you and learn from you. And I tell this to everybody. Listen, you always want to talk to people who have been there and done that. And the fact that you make yourself available to help others out and tell your story is really great. So I just want to say thank you so much for coming on this podcast. I really, really appreciate it.

Ian Telfer 17:28

Well, Frank, my pleasure and continued success, my friend.

Frank Curzio 17:32

Thank you very much.

Ian Telfer 17:33

Take care.

Frank Curzio 17:34

You know, I personally love interviews like this. And I’m 54. And at this age, you always want to learn. And I say at this age because when you’re younger and you’re 20s, you think you know everything. And that’s fine. It’s what you’re supposed to do. I was like that working on Wall Street. And then you realize in your 30s and even getting to your 40s, you start realizing you really don’t know shit because there’s a lot of smart people out there like Ian. And for me, I always want to learn and pick their mind. And look, he’s 80, but he’s been there and done that. I was really looking forward to him coming on this podcast, Wall Street Unplugged. I was honored that he said, hey, you know what? I’ll do it because again, he doesn’t do a lot of these. You’re not going to find a lot of interviews with him anywhere. He taught me great lessons on gold, on why having talent is essential to taking your company to the next level. And that sounds easier said than done, but you need great talent. Yes, you can create million, 5 million, $10 million company, but to take Anthropic to where it is, to take Facebook where it is, you need the investors.

Frank Curzio 18:35

You need people who know what they’re doing, know how to scale and bring it to the next level. I have people on this podcast I’ve interviewed, got like Van Simmons Professional Grading Services that he sold, which was a monster company. And I forgot he sold it to a fanatic. So it turned it into four times the size, right? So having talent and people that understand how to do that is essential to building a huge company. And being able to talk to him and pick his mind about everything was awesome. Again, seeing that at 80, he’s all there. He really wanted to come on this podcast, which was cool. He was looking forward to it and emailed me like emojis like, hey, looking forward to it, which is great. Also, his interest in offshore drilling amazes me, which is why he’s so involved with Blue Energy. And as you know, when we look at Blue Energy, Blue Energy, we have a marketing consulting contract. And a lot of people have called us out and said, Frank, you’re getting paid by these companies.

Frank Curzio 19:27

And what’s going on with that type of business model? And we realized that this industry is very shitty. People pay marketers who have no stake in the company. I personally own a lot of shares in this company. I’m going to be building up that stake even further. I only work with companies that I respect, that I analyze, that I’d invest in personally. Because in our industry, there’s marketers that don’t do that. They’re just going to say, hey, you need traffic, you need a lot of investors, you need to increase liquidity. Okay, give us a couple million dollars and we’ll go from there and we’ll do that. And they don’t care what happens to the company afterwards. And that model’s been going on for decades. And over the past 10 years, a lot of these CEOs say, why are we using these companies when yes, we want the liquidity, but the time we get it, everyone’s like short selling the stock. They know we got paid. It’s all bullshit. And you see what separates good companies from bad companies.

Frank Curzio 20:17

But Blue, when you have Ian Telfer as a co-founder of this company, when you see any investors that are in this company, when you see that when they finance and they just raise money, which was less than $10 million, $7 million, and they raised 20 million, where 70% plus came from the insiders, people who own the stock already, right? There’s something very, very big here when it comes to Blue Energy, which when I first learned about it, I’m like, wow, this junior offshore driller, I don’t know if this is going to work. And then when I started doing research, they’re one of the first movers into Liberia, right? And I was like, Liberia, really? And this is where Total, this is the oil giant Total, just took a 65% interest in that property after they bought it, which is called the Harper Basin. And then Total went out and bought six blocks right to the west of it. And this six blocks, they announced, and this is all within the past couple of months that they’re going to spend $200 million on each block to develop it, $800 million in total.

Frank Curzio 21:11

That’s a massive, massive amount of money. Just look at the offshore oil trend off the West Coast of Africa, especially Liberia, since they just opened up that property. Same geology around with it to the left, to the right, and all the countries that they’re finding billion and multi-billion dollar oil finds, right? This isn’t a joke. Petrobus, two weeks ago, bought eight blocks right to the west of Blue’s Harper Basin, right up to Liberia coastline, right there where it owns a 90% interest in these blocks and plans on spending hundreds of millions to develop this area. I keep saying billions, but millions. But overall, we’re looking at billions of barrels and billions in total being spent to develop. Now, why is that? Why are we seeing such a big trend that we’re not really hearing a lot of? And now we’re starting to see, by the way, Somberjet came out. The oil services companies, they’re all reporting. They’re saying, they’re telling you how much money is going into this area and why is it?

Frank Curzio 22:02

Because West Africa is one of the last remaining unexplored frontiers for oil. And companies are already seeing multi-billion barrel finds. And they’re doing it at a cost that’s cheaper, believe it or not, cheaper than to drill in the Permian now. That’s how great the technology has gotten. And a lot of that is less political headwinds. And it’s just, but they’re all going to this area because they need to replenish a ton of their oil. So it’s like the perfect storm for this industry. And these guys saw it coming four, five years ago. Craig Stenke said, let’s buy the Manhattan real estate in this area. Next thing you know, Total’s like, that’s so good. Let’s just partner with them. I take 65%, which removes a ton of risk. But now you have this tiny pure play, the only pure play I believe in West Africa as a poker trade stock that you can invest in that has incredible upside potential where you don’t need them to raise so much money to drill that area. You have Total there. But what happens if Petrobus discovers oil there?

Frank Curzio 22:57

What happens if Total discovers oil on the blocks next to it? That’s going to be pushing the stock up significantly. And when you have news coming out within the next six months to tell you, hey, how much oil do we really think is at this or in this area? I think it’s going to blow everyone away just for the simple fact that the majors, they don’t make mistakes. They’ve made so many mistakes over 100 years investing in the wrong areas, in the wrong geographies, the wrong technologies. These guys don’t make mistakes. And when you see every one of them, practically every one of them, even Chevron’s in here. You’re looking at all the Sovereign World Nations, everyone, Exxon just going all in on, especially in this area of offshore drilling in West Africa, it says something. It says something. And having to be involved and honored to work with these guys and consult with them and help them build this company and let everyone know that this company’s on the map is very exciting to me. And I stand to lose a lot of money if this doesn’t work because I’m a shareholder and I’m only going to be working with companies that I’m personally going to be a shareholder in.

Frank Curzio 23:58

If I’m not, then I’m not. I would never tell anyone, hey, you know what? This is a great company. This is what these guys are doing. But when it comes to Blue Energy and Ian Telfer being the co-founder and talking about it the way he did, it’s pretty incredible. I tell everyone, look, it’s a high risk, crazy high reward situation where if there’s oil where I believe, we’re talking about multi-billion dollar or multi-billion barrel finds. We’re not looking at a 10X here. We’re looking at 25 to 50X potential. And I don’t say that lightly. And if you’re wrong, okay, then you lose money. So don’t go all in here, but definitely put money in there and hold it for a couple of years and see what happens. Because this is one of those companies where so many people do this when it comes to risky investing and the things that I’ve been focused on small caps, almost pretty much my whole career, 30 years, make sure that reward is worth the risk you’re taking. So if it doesn’t work out, I see people put in money and if it works out, they get a 2X.

Frank Curzio 24:48

And if it didn’t work out, they would have lost all their money. That’s not a favorable risk reward. But putting in money to get a 25X plus return, and this is based on numbers that we’re seeing just in finds not too far away. They’re actually defining oil. It’s the same geology at Defining Oil on. It’s pretty incredible, which I’ve analyzed tons to my alpha members. But this is an exciting, exciting opportunity. And I just want to thank Ian for coming on because he’s awesome. And again, just seeing him at that age being able to pick his mind, it’s great for me. Let me know if it was great for you. Email me, frank@curzioresearch.com. Again, thank you so much once again, Ian, for coming on Wall Street Unplugged. And guys, I’ll see you soon. Take care.

Announcer 24:28

Wall Street Unplugged is produced by Curzio Research, one of the most respected financial media companies in the industry. The information presented on Wall Street Unplugged is the opinion of its host and guests. You should not base your investment decisions solely on this broadcast. Remember, it’s your money, and your responsibility.